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Author Topic: turbo set up question  (Read 4579 times)

ivan novakovic

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turbo set up question
« on: April 15, 2009, 11:07:18 AM »

i just picked up a 2871 .64.

i plan on running 93 octane.  i want at least 370 at the wheels, but a shit load of mid range and low end if thats possible...er...as much as i can get rather.

would running 256/264 cams be good, or you think i need bigger...or stock?

what about the manifold? i was thinking either a synapse or a tomei style one with unequal lenght runners.

20 psi too high on pump gas?

give me some ideas before i throw down more cash for all this crap.
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aaronlosey

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Re: turbo set up question
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2009, 11:20:06 AM »

First off, a 2871 .64 is a great turbo for a drifting sr20 setup.  I had two seperate 240sx with that setup.  The first made 330whp or so at 18 psi I think on 93 octane, and stock cams.  The second made 387whp on 272 cams.  They were night and day, and the 272 car sucked to drift because the cams were all wrong for the turbo.

So basically in a drift car you want response.  You can get that in a number of ways.  Displacement, turbo sizing, compression, octane, tune, and design of the turbo system.  As you play with those items you can fudge one item to get away with more or less of one of the other items. 

1.  Increasing the displacement would make a car have more power and response.

2.  Turbo sizing.  A lot goes into turbo sizing, take the 30r for example.  There are so many versions of the garrett 30r, that some would work great on your car, and so would be absolute trash and make your car useless.  The easiest way to choose a turbo is get someone experienced in turbos to help you choose, and drive or ride along in as many different turbo setups as possible before you choose yours.  Russell and Derrick could help you choose a great turbo setup, but since you are going to run a 93 octane reasonably inexpensive build, the 2871 will most likely be a great choice.

3.  Compression.  Your not going to mess with this most likely, but there is no need to drop your compression greatly so you can run more boost with this turbo.  And since you won't be running a lot of octane, you don't want to raise it.  Leave it alone.

4.  Octane.  The 2871 setup with 104 octane or so would really come alive, and be very responsive, because the car can run more boost and have a lot more timing advance to get the fun going.  This would make the car significantly more fun to drift, but isn't necessary.  Just keep in mind if the car isn't as responsive as you want it, a great tune and more octane could be exactly what you need.

5.  Tune.  A great tune is super important.  Don't just let anyone tune it, get someone good.  But don't pay a grand if you don't have it, someone should be willing to do it for something reasonable.  I normally paid 200 bucks a tune on a PFC with my tuner.  But you need to build a relationship with them.

6.  Design of the turbo system.  Eliminating bends, tubing length, getting sizing of all the piping right, wastegate setup, and lots of other things will help make the power you want, along with creating the response you want.  I will include cams in here too, since they are part of what is moving the air in the system.  You want either stock cams, or at the very biggest, 262s.  You need to balance the cam size with the turbo size, so if a cam works well from 3k-7k rpm you choose a turbo that works well in that same range, such as a 262 and the 2871r.  If you want a 35r, there is no point running such a small cam since you are never going to make power from 3-4k, so you can just get rid of that idea, and that cam would choke the turbo out since it wants to go to at least 8k.  So a 272 would be great for a 35r on an sr20 because they both have very high powerbands, although the 35r would suck balls on any type of non crazy motor for drifting.



Ok, now to answer your questions about power.  You might come up a little shy on no cams and the 2871 of your 370whp goal.  You would either need to add some more octane, more boost than your should on 93, or cams to make the 370whp number.  Depending on the dyno you use, you might make it there.  I would say instead of making a power goal with that turbo, just decide on how you are going to set the car up as nicely, and with the best craftsmanship as possible.  Concentrate on making everything nice, dependable, and clean.  Don't concentrate on power.

What I mean by that is buy a decent manifold, decent external wastegate, nice garrett bb turbo ( which you already are ), and get everything working well together.  The power will just come with a nicely setup car.  This would mean you probably cut your boost off at 18psi or so on pump gas.  Sure people run 20psi on the forums, but that seems a bit aggressive if you want everything to work great a year from now, and those last 2 psi aren't going to do that much on 93, and they are a liability, although they would get you close to your 370whp goal.  So on pump gas and smaller cams you will probably hit 330-350whp. 



And the end all be all to response with this setup, which I didn't put up top because you can't build it, is driving technique.  You need to stay over 4500rpm with this setup to drift happily in a competitive setup.  As long as you stay up there, the power is almost as instant as in my LS1 car.  The boost will be instant, the ball bearing center section will already be spun up, and the tires will just light right up.  If that means you have to pop the clutch or shift to do that constantly, that is what you have to do, and you just get used to it.  If that means you need to pop your redline up to 8k, which I always did even on my stock sr20s with stock cams, then thats what you need to do so you have rpm extension to stay up there without having to shift quite as much.  Your technique will have to change, and as the turbo on your sr20 gets bigger, the car gets harder and more technical to drive.  Any larger than the 2871 .64, and I would almost go as far to say you NEED 100+ octane to enjoy the setup.  I ran my full race 3071 setup on 93, and forced it to work through driving style, but most people wouldn't have been happy with it. 








Look at the below dyno.  That was my gold car and 272 cams on the 2871.  Looks pretty retarded doesn't it.  Don't put those cams together with that turbo.
http://fabricatedmotorsports.com/images/gold%20car%20dyno.jpg


And really quickly, lets take 3 cars and compare and contrast them.  Stew has my old built sr20 with a 2871r setup in his s14.  Russell has a 3076 on a s15 sr20 which is stock.  Tcox runs a 3071 twin scroll setup.  All use race gas.

Stew.  His powerband is probably 4000-8000, he runs around 23-28psi I would guess, he makes well over 400whp at this boost.  His car clearly works and makes lots of smoke. 

Russell.  His motor is stock, I think he runs a powerband closer to 4500-7800, he runs 18psi, he makes 380whp. 

Tcox.  His motor is built, he has a power band of 4500-8500, he runs 28 psi, he makes 485whp.

Stew makes significantly more power on a much smaller turbo because he runs way more boost.  Russell is running far less boost because he doesn't want to build his motor.  Russell is subscribing to the idea that you choose a turbo that is super efficient to get the job done, and run it at 50% duty cycle, while stew is running his setup at 90% duty cycle.  Both make enough power to get things done, both are responsive enough to keep their owners happy.  Tcox's is running his setup closer to 100% duty cycle, and makes the most power by quite a bit.  His setup clearly works too, and is the only one to run 272 cams.  Stew's motor is the only one that would probably still work on pump gas though, the others would loose too much response if they went to pump gas, and their drivers would be frustrated.  It should also be noted that both of the larger turbo cars have gone to significant lengths to cut down intercooler piping and make their plumbing design as efficient as possible.  It should also be noted that the 2871 car is probably the only one that can simply get on the gas at 4k rpm without a clutch kick after a transition and keep drifting smoothly outside of second gear.  Both of the larger turbo cars would have to pop the clutch to stay in boost when transitioning 3rd gear stuff.  The drivers probably don't even notice they do it anymore, it just becomes habit and part of your driving style. 


place holder.  I will finish this later.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 12:15:46 PM by aaronlosey »
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aaronlosey

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Re: turbo set up question
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2009, 12:48:43 PM »

place holder
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ivan novakovic

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Re: turbo set up question
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2009, 01:14:04 PM »

damn aaron.  thanks man.

the 370 power goal is just a goal.  my MAIN concern is just a reliable, fun car with badass response.  i think ill throw small cams in there and a decent manifold. 

as far as race gas goes, ive been debating whether to run it or not and im still kind of indecisive.  i know i would like it alot more, but my main concern is if its gonna be a pain in the ass.  i like driving my car around town too.  race gas doesnt come cheap and its obviously not as easy to deal with as just going to a local pump.
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Johny5

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Re: turbo set up question
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2009, 01:24:42 PM »

yeah, its not as easy, but damn its nice insurance. many of times i'd find out that my setup was pushing 2.1 bar at an event before i realized it due to AVCR settings. on pump gas? sup detonation! also aarons old setup thats in my car now spools so quickly because its on stock cams. i wouldn't personally go bigger than 256/264 stagger tomei or hks cams, but thats just me.

Luxor Excelsior

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Re: turbo set up question
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2009, 01:28:41 PM »

You should be able to get a larger exhaust cam and keep the stock intake cam if you're worried about volume to fill.  A larger exhaust cam by itself should net quicker response from your turbo. Then again, once everything is spooled you'll be in power and more in = more out, so the turbo will be happy.  It just depends on how much off-boost response you want I suppose... a 256/264 cam setup would be what I would go with, and keep the VTC for midrange power.

Or just go all out and get a nice manifold that holds a lot of volume, ITB's, and maybe some custom-grind cams so you can work to make whatever midrange power you want. Response will improve but that's $$$$ most of us don't have.

Turbo manifolds can also come into play. Stew, how's that Tomei manifold working out on Aubre's car? The staggered runner length should help spool the turbo better than an equal-length tubular setup, but make slightly less power. This has been proven, despite popular belief, by Full-Race dyno testing on log manifold vs. their tubular ramhorn setup. Albeit, it was on a Honda motor, but the physics are the same. A coating on the manifold and turbo will help keep heat in and spool faster... basically just all steps you can do to ensure an efficient setup.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about anything, as far as what you may have heard or experienced.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 01:36:29 PM by burn_up »
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aaronlosey

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Re: turbo set up question
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2009, 02:07:49 PM »

why would you want itb's on a turbo car?
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Procompballstomp

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Re: turbo set up question
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2009, 04:25:15 PM »

why would you want itb's on a turbo car?

dont Pulsar GTI-R's run ITBs factory and make crazy torque and power curves while retaining good response?

theres no difference besides baller factor.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 04:26:28 PM by McRussellPants »
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aaronlosey

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Re: turbo set up question
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2009, 05:11:16 PM »

That isn't crazy power
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Luxor Excelsior

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Re: turbo set up question
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2009, 09:59:40 PM »

why would you want itb's on a turbo car?

Its just more efficient because the plenum will already be somewhat pressurized... I can't think of any scenario that wouldn't benefit from ITB's, provided that they're large enough.  Most are what, like 40-50mm?
Its basically the same principle, extrapolated, of running a stock manifold to improve response over something larger like a greddy.  As far as I understand regarding throttle response, the less volume to transition from vacuum to positive pressure, the better.

Edit: Probably going to get edited by Russell.

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zaquan

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Re: turbo set up question
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2009, 10:41:42 PM »

since this is kinda turbo related id like to ask this here

but what is the use of a screamer pipe for verse a divided turbo elbow ?
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Luxor Excelsior

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Re: turbo set up question
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2009, 11:24:24 PM »

since this is kinda turbo related id like to ask this here

but what is the use of a screamer pipe for verse a divided turbo elbow ?

I assume you mean open wastegate dump? No real benefit on an internal wastegated turbo.  Probably marginal benefit on an external wastegate setup, provided that if routed back in you could route it in 6-10" after the turbocharger (I think somewhere in there is considered "optimal," could be up to 12", I don't quite remember) at an optimal angle for flow. Also consider how many bends the wastegate goes through to route into the downpipe, or out the fender, or whatever.  If its just one 45deg bend and dump then it shouldn't be that bad of a setup.  Just basic flow principle junk I guess.

So to answer your question really, an internal gated turbo should probably just run with the smoothest-flowing divided elbow.
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Russell Walker

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Re: turbo set up question
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2009, 11:37:19 PM »

The Staggered Exhaust side is something the J guys bust over, its not really the best of both worlds, it just comes out to an "in-between" size basically, like, you don't get 256 spool and 264 top end, you just get a result thats halfway between a 256 and a 264.

ITBs, will help, since its positive pressure 6in from the valve instead of like 10 or so, but really the difference won't be so noticeable as to want to spend 1500$ on making it work.

Cheater gate vs a nice divorced merge isn't really worth it, you'll probably lose more power from the exhaust leak on a cheater gate is my only geuss.
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Luxor Excelsior

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Re: turbo set up question
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2009, 11:51:02 PM »

The Staggered Exhaust side is something the J guys bust over, its not really the best of both worlds, it just comes out to an "in-between" size basically, like, you don't get 256 spool and 264 top end, you just get a result thats halfway between a 256 and a 264.

ITBs, will help, since its positive pressure 6in from the valve instead of like 10 or so, but really the difference won't be so noticeable as to want to spend 1500$ on making it work.

Cheater gate vs a nice divorced merge isn't really worth it, you'll probably lose more power from the exhaust leak on a cheater gate is my only geuss.

Agreed.  ITB's almost as practical as a mil-spec harness.  ;) Not that I wouldn't spring for either. I totally would. I'm baller, I'm baller.
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Russell Walker

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Re: turbo set up question
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2009, 12:06:15 AM »

alrighty.

First off, I don't tell anyone to buy anything other than GT series turbos. The Borg Warner turbos that every ones hyping these days will make better power, but at the expense of transient response. "Extended tip technology" is a cool way of saying the compressor and exhaust have more height, which is great for power, but doesn't really matter on the non ball bearing CHRA.

Next, non ball bearing is shit. anyone that tells you otherwise can suck a bag of dicks while they clutch kick four times waiting for boost.

Billet Compressors such as Forced Performance and PTE are the JAM, like, absolutely worth it if you get them on a GT Series CHRA, think like, around 75hp more for our applications and way better transient and threshold than their cast cousins, (these will knock a BW turbo on its ass in terms of inlet size vs power too)

T-Series turbos haven't been updated since stone henge, anything that has a "stage" you should prolly avoid. the 50/57/60 Trim T04Es are a gigantic waste of time and money. even the ball bearing CHRAs, still uses dinosaur exhaust wheel and compressor that weighs more than a buick, fuck it.

Inlet sizes, good indicator of power
GT2560 48mm
GT2860 48mm
GT2871 51mm
GT3071 53mm
GT3076 57mm
GT3582 61mm
GT3588 67mm

GT2860RS, is the GT-SS, kind of a cop out, same compressor as an S15 GT2560R with a little more exhaust wheel. i don't really care about this turbo, so fuck it.

GT2871R 52Trim, Exactly an HKS GTRS is the holy grail of stockish setups, The 52T is more efficient than the 56T wheel that the 2871 shares with the 3071. expect usable power around 4k, nosing over by around 7k and done by about 8k. 400whp is doable with Cams that flow well, after that you'll be fighting the 53mm exhaust wheel.

GT2876R. There is no reason to have this turbo, otherwise known as the GT2540R. get rid of it.

GT3071WG. Sucks, 56mm clipped exhaust, HKS 2835 ProS. Another cop out to half the difference between the real 3071 and the 2871, the 56mm exhaust wheel doesn't really work so hot though so the 60 isn't that much worse in terms of response done by about 440whp

GT3071R. good turbo for sure, looks slick with the 4in cover, don't bother with anti-surge porting though it doesn't need it. the big kids 60mm exhaust wheel will flow some serious power and works extremely well, can get the .70 Divided housing if you're into that sort of thing. done by about 480whp

GT3076R. The original GT30, the 57mm inlet will flow serious and the same GT30 60mm exhaust wheel is there to back it up, very efficient on both hot and cold sides. I get part throttle surge because its so willing to come into boost. done around 525whp.

GT3582R, The original GT35, 61mm inlet, good to around 600whp on racegas. nobody here will use this on a two liter, but its in the sweet spot for 2.5-2.8 liter. 65mm exhaust wheel.

GT3588R, the T04R compresor on a GT35 frame. probably a little mismatched, and at this point a straight T04R is probably better, and the GT40 is pretty mismatched in the other direction, but i don't think this really matters for this thread.
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